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07:00:21 From  Markus Kümmerle  to  Everyone:
    #info Markus Kümmerle, DT / CAMARA
07:00:29 From  N.K. Shankaranarayanan (STL)  to  Everyone:
    #info N.K.Shankar, STL
07:00:48 From  Byung-Woo Jun  to  Everyone:
    #info proxy Byung-Woo Jun, Ericsson
07:01:05 From  Andreas GEISSLER (DT)  to  Everyone:
    #info Andreas Geissler, DT
07:01:06 From  Yuanhong Deng  to  Everyone:
    #info Yuanhong Deng, China Mobile
07:01:09 From  Fred Oliveira  to  Everyone:
    #info Fred Oliveira, Self
07:01:19 From  Dong Wang (China Telecom)  to  Everyone:
    #info Dong Wang, China Telecom
07:01:42 From  Ranny Haiby (Linux Foundation)  to  Everyone:
    #info Ranny Haiby, The LF
07:06:18 From  Amy Zwarico  to  Everyone:
    #info Amy Zwarico - proxy for Catherine Lefevre
07:06:29 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    @amy thanks
07:08:30 From  N.K. Shankaranarayanan (STL)  to  Everyone:
    Is the speaker sharing something on the screen?
07:28:58 From  Amy Zwarico  to  Everyone:
    RH
07:35:34 From  N.K. Shankaranarayanan (STL)  to  Everyone:
    RH
07:37:32 From  Ranny Haiby (Linux Foundation)  to  Everyone:
    RH
07:46:49 From  Markus Kümmerle  to  Everyone:
    markus.kuemmerle@t-systems.com
08:11:21 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    #vote does the TSC approve the Kohn M2 milestone as being completed with the condition that the color-coding for the global requirement table is updated by M3 ? +1, 0, -1
08:11:26 From  Andreas GEISSLER (DT)  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:27 From  Fred Oliveira  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:31 From  N.K. Shankaranarayanan (STL)  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:32 From  Ranny Haiby (Linux Foundation)  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:35 From  Byung-Woo Jun (Ericsson)  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:38 From  Dong Wang (China Telecom)  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1
08:11:39 From  Amy Zwarico  to  Everyone:
    #vote +1 - proxy for Catherine Lefevre
08:12:02 From  Yuanhong Deng  to  Everyone:
    #vote+1
08:12:16 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    #endvote
08:13:10 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    #AGREED TSC approves the Kohn M2 milestone as being completed with the condition that the color-coding for the global requirement table is updated by M3.
08:22:36 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    https://events.linuxfoundation.org/one-summit-north-america/program/cfp/
08:22:47 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    https://events.linuxfoundation.org/one-summit-north-america/
08:23:06 From  Kenny PAUL (LFN)  to  Everyone:
    discount code ONE22LFNMEM

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07:02:39 transcripts have been enabled
07:02:48 Says it's enabled but I don't see it how it is okay
07:02:57 Everybody's muted. When you come in please keep yourself muted unless you're speaking, you can use star 6 If you're on a phone line to unmute yourself.
07:03:08 If you send me a private chat message, I will have to cut and paste that into the minutes for the meeting, and as always, we will start by talking about our anti trust policy.
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07:03:54 For today's agenda first thing that we have is Marcus komo meryl.
07:04:04 I hope i'm pronouncing that correctly sir, from the come.
07:04:08 Our project will be sharing what they're doing this could be potentially a replacement for the external Api project here in own app and as folks on the call no doubt no
07:04:29 there's been waning support for external Api.
07:04:33 So this may be a good thing. we will talk about the M.
07:04:37 2 miles done for the Comm release. Standard range infrastructure.
07:04:44 Final call for for integration. See if we got any update on the liaison statement with 3 Gpb: Talk about anecdot assured.
07:04:57 And our standard care and feeding items. Anything else anyone would like to add
07:05:10 Okay? Then, if not, let me promote Marcus to be a co-host and stop sharing.
07:05:20 So that you may, sir.
07:05:25 So I try but I don't want to use much slides.
07:05:32 It's more important to tell you what they are doing and first of all to say hello and to say thank you to be in your project today.
07:05:39 So I'm. Michael Schummer i'm from Docher telecom in my daily job. i'm responsible for the Api exposure of the company.
07:05:48 And it is my second job i'm the Yeah, you can name it the chair of this year and committee of camera.
07:05:55 So i've driven the whole thing from the beginning last year to to now.
07:06:01 And I'm happy to tell you something. about It so. the basic idea of commander is is about the network capabilities of 40 and fiveg. We, as telco.
07:06:13 We think that is a real value where we can create new business cases for our customers, where we can enhance the business cases for our customers.
07:06:23 So that's a really good thing and by the way It's also a good thing for us to get some revenues.
07:06:28 That's the reason why we are looking on it but to make that happen.
07:06:33 Well, it's simple to develop it. you need more you need an ecosystem.
07:06:38 Currently these capabilities are on a level of innovation.
07:06:44 I want to call it, and to make business out of it you need an ecosystem, and this ecosystem should have 4 basic principles.
07:06:55 The one is abstraction. so we will not expose this.
07:06:58 This technical features one by one. The reason is the telecom stuff is very complicated, and a a normal developer don't want to handle the cell ids and your slices and all the things they want to come and tell us for my
07:07:14 application on that device. Please give me low latency in the next quarter hour, because I need it for my game.
07:07:20 So, and how we do it that's our telephone thing and for that we needed abstraction. and by the way, this abstraction also help us to fulfill data privacy constraints and also to to
07:07:35 keep the control of our network. we decide what we expose, not to endanger the network and the rest of the customers.
07:07:43 So abstraction that's the first important thing the second that's availability.
07:07:49 The customers expect that these api's these capabilities are available up across telecom networks and across countries.
07:07:58 It's nice if you have it in the dt network then it's nice for a niche developer for a niche application, but a real business.
07:08:08 This scalable business only will happen if it's seamless available.
07:08:13 So there is the second pillar. the third one is a chill T.
07:08:18 They were a lot of Api exposure trials in the past of several operators of Gma, and a lot of them failed.
07:08:28 Because they were based on on paper, standardization and paper standardization.
07:08:33 You know, in the tech world that takes 5 years 3 or 5 years, and that's too too slow.
07:08:40 The business is now, and if you don't take it then some somebody other will take it.
07:08:45 So we decided to do it. A child Modern open source and create an open source project in the Linux Foundation, and the third pillar.
07:08:57 That is business driven. so we don't want to develop things the world don't need sorry for it. Sorry for interrupting.
07:09:04 It sounds like you might be sharing something. no no no I'm still talking But I I can show something.
07:09:12 If you have questions. it's it's simple to talk about, and then, if you have dedicated questions, you go deeply in, so I have plenty of slides, but it's boring for you to see all the pictures
07:09:22 and and the long text, This I think it's easier to to tell the story. Yeah.
07:09:28 And the first thing is business driven. So that means we want to develop
07:09:35 These capabilities the customers demand really demand. and out of that 4 basic principles we designed Kamara.
07:09:45 So Kamara is an open source project where we develop these Api's, and we defect or standardize it by by that way.
07:09:56 Kamara has also a legal terms of reference with the Gsma because of the Gsma.
07:10:04 They are all the operators, and the idea is that Jason may can send us requirements can send us information for for Apis, and that's
07:10:15 One source of our backlog, and then in camera we develop it open source.
07:10:21 Hl. very fast, test it, and then we push it back to the Chase mail for publishing to all the 200 telecoms that they can immediately implement and test it in their network.
07:10:35 That's the base idea behind and that's the main construct of of Kamara.
07:10:42 So, and we started one year ago with that idea. We had the first talks with with some other operators, with some vendors, and also with customers.
07:10:52 They all confirmed us. Oh, it's a real good idea and so we implemented the whole thing, and we launched it at mobile work.
07:11:04 Congress, with already 22 partners, and the number is increasing.
07:11:10 We are now, I think, about 50 partners and now can I can share something.
07:11:16 So one moment let's find the right picture and I can show you the the current local slide, so hopefully it will come.
07:11:33 So can you see it? Yes, sir, yeah. so when that's a the current local slide, so you can see
07:11:40 We have a lot of the of the big calculus in.
07:11:43 So for the German market we have water phone. We have Pt: we have O 2 we have orange from France.
07:11:51 We have telephonica for Spain, telecom Italia.
07:11:55 We have a one from Austria, so already Good footprint in Europe we have at and t from the Us.
07:12:02 We have t mobile us. We have tell us Canada and you also have 5 to future forum, and in the back.
07:12:08 That's Verizon. so we have a a good footprint for the for us market, and also for the Asian market.
07:12:14 We have Kdi and Japan, but also colleagues from any telecom from Chinese Turkish companies, too.
07:12:25 They are still in the calls. they have not given the commitment to show the logo, but it's not important.
07:12:33 They recall they're collaborating and that's the important thing.
07:12:36 So it's a a a good representation of the telecom.
07:12:43 Already. we have all of the vendors in, So you can see Ericson not here, Mavenir.
07:12:46 All the important ones. We have some smaller ones also in the most interesting thing, and that's the the in important thing for me.
07:12:57 We have the big customers in. So we have Google in.
07:13:00 We have Microsoft in and then it background we have apple also in Amazon, 2, so that's a good mix to work.
07:13:11 And we are already making good progress. So if you look on the on the Github page of of tomorrow, I can show it one moment.
07:13:20 You can see that we already have started work on Apis.
07:13:24 So we have one version of quality and demand which is developed, which is tested, and where we already perform pox with end customers.
07:13:35 The Api is about low latency about stable bandwidth, and the second Api family, which is now developed is edge cloud, so that's mainly to get the best edge to locate at resources.
07:13:54 All that things that has started in June, and in the last year in committee, we decided to add 2 new Api families.
07:14:04 The one is about device status. So getting an a trigger when a device loses the connection, or when it just reaches reachable again.
07:14:14 And the the last api family is device location so that means for for iot devices.
07:14:21 It's it's the location. that's easy, but for mobile phones. for example, it will be more a verify location out of data privacy. reasons.
07:14:31 So we are developing Apis more and more, and the community is is growing.
07:14:39 If you look in the in the participants file, here can see all the the Logos and the the people who are active in the community, so it's it's growing and and working more and more so that was Kamara in very simple
07:14:56 words in very short worlds without big slide presentation.
07:15:04 Hopefully. a good intro for you and now i'm open for your question.
07:15:10 I would like to have deep dives in the topics you are interested in
07:15:18 So it looks like what you've got going here is the apis are being developed for a specific a a a a specific function.
07:15:32 And I think that what we have going on here, and somebody can correct me.
07:15:40 It is is that our external Api is just basically how we make the own app api visible outside.
07:15:50 So so might not be an exact kind of match here that that we were thinking it was.
07:15:59 I think this is a excellent overview for us.
07:16:03 I will stop talking now, and let somebody who's closer to the code here.
07:16:10 Comment on how we think that this might be able to benefit us, or how we might be able to collaborate together.
07:16:20 Yeah. before we go into that. maybe one question.
07:16:24 This is running for clarification. What exactly is the deliverable of the commercial projects.
07:16:32 I'm trying to quickly look through the github repository and sure.
07:16:37 So yeah, and open Api definition of the Api.
07:16:42 Does it go beyond that? If you can clarify? what?
07:16:46 What are the deliverables here? so it's a It's a complete set around an Api that consists of the Api defense. So typically it's the yaml file for the for the Api but also
07:16:59 all the the documentation for the Api so it's a user documentation.
07:17:07 And finally the code. So the code between the the southbound interface and the North Pond.
07:17:13 So we take the the 3 Gpp interfaces of the Ftc.
07:17:18 Core. For example, we we use them, and then we transform
07:17:24 The the State heart is functions to a to an intent based level.
07:17:29 So there's a bitter slide one moment or I can show it so here you can see it.
07:17:37 Or the utmost left. You see the basic technical functions that may be 3 Gpp call function for the for the net.
07:17:45 That may be any, it function or other functions. and we take that and create out of that intent, based service Api level.
07:17:55 And that it's an excellency thing which I mentioned a developer comes to us and tells us please give me low latency.
07:18:02 In the next quarter of our that's the service api level, and then we, we take it and how we implement it.
07:18:09 It's depending on there on the topology depending on the network.
07:18:13 So, for example, it could be that we first look in which cell is he? is 5 G.
07:18:21 Stand alone, available as slices available. Yeah. Then we do load latency slides for that.
07:18:24 If no slices are there, we use 5 qi classes for it, and if you're on the countryside and only have 5 15 on stand alone, then we know if you take twoci class classes of 40.
07:18:37 So, and then we use it to the to the back end. And the answer which we give back to the developer is, Yes, you can getload.
07:18:46 Get low latency or an scale from one to 5 you get number 4, and if it changes we will send you a remark.
07:18:53 So that's the way we are doing it we are exposing that that service Api level and for for matching.
07:19:03 Then northbound, your service, Api northbound to the southbound.
07:19:07 Here we have a transformation function, And this code is also part of Kamara.
07:19:15 Okay, And my misreading this diagram is this code, Telco specific, or do we expect it to be to all Telcos?
07:19:25 So we want to have it based on a reference implementation for the Nef.
07:19:30 And we will get a reference implementation, from nokia That's the first vendor doing such things, and so we match our our code against that reference implementation, and then each of the of the operators can take it in the best
07:19:46 case the there is nothing to change because it's free to be standardized hopefully.
07:19:52 But you know in the the devil is the detail of course.
07:19:57 So in some cases there is some adaption necessary and and but it should be easy for each telecom to do that adaptation. and to use the code.
07:20:07 That's how intent? Okay, thanks for clarifying yeah No problem.
07:20:13 You're welcome
07:20:17 So this is shocker. So what I apologize.
07:20:21 I joined like maybe 3 min, 4 min late, and I may have a misty punchline.
07:20:29 But what is the primary problem that you're trying to solve with Kamara?
07:20:37 So what's the primary problem what what's not there today?
07:20:42 What gaps do we have today? then the network is trying to resolve.
07:20:47 Today we have this network capabilities. Each telecom have it, and none of them exposes it.
07:20:53 None of them fulfills the minds of customers with it.
07:20:57 None of them monetizes it so, and to be able to monetize it, you need an ecosystem.
07:21:04 You need a a partnership, because the customers expect that these Apis are the same in all networks, and they expect that they are simple and easy to consume and not complex.
07:21:17 With with telco details, and they also accept expected our business driven that they follow their requirements.
07:21:26 And that's exactly the reason why we have created Camara for that defective standardization for that partnership.
07:21:34 To to establish this these Api standards
07:21:49 Is it? Is it clear now? a little bit now? I need to read up on it I mean, that big problem.
07:21:58 I mean the what i'm struggling with is the the end user units the phones themselves.
07:22:10 The privacy issues that we have and the all the efforts that are going that are on underway to basically enforce these privacies.
07:22:24 Then introducing open api that would potentially or could potentially compromise the privacy that everybody's working to implement.
07:22:35 Yeah, Yeah, that's a a very good point we have to be very cautious.
07:22:39 What we expose, for example, there that location thing?
07:22:44 We only create a function like verify location and not give out the location of a of a smartphone, and also from points of network neutrality.
07:22:55 If you decide to to give one customer or latency that is, consumes resources of the cell, and you have to make sure that the other customers don't have a a disadvantage out of it So you need a
07:23:08 bookkeeper functionality to see how much of that priorization I can do, how much of customers I can give that features, and not to to punish the rest of it.
07:23:19 Too much. So it's a really important point and also for that.
07:23:27 We need that that service Api level. this extraction
07:23:32 But it's completely right it's it's a it's a difficult thing
07:23:44 Okay, Thank you. You like him
07:23:51 So, looking at this in the context of own app and kind of the original thought that Catherine had when she heard about the project.
07:24:06 How do folks see the The The project is potentially something we could partner with in the context of external Api.
07:24:20 Does it make sense, does it not?
07:24:28 So perhaps you can tell me. What do you expose exactly with your Api?
07:24:33 Is i'm i'm not firm in Omnipotent.
07:24:36 So sorry, would helpful for me to to understand it.
07:24:41 What exactly do you do? Do you expose? What what functionality is that
07:24:52 Chakra. This may be a a good one from an architecture standpoint. and so, if you look, if you look at the bigger picture right?
07:25:07 I'm not saying in all cases but in most cases own app is deployed within one isp infrastructure, so which means that that one isd controls access to all the devices whether they're iot devices
07:25:29 whether they're cell phone so whether they're what whatever where you know could be anything right?
07:25:36 So within that environment. he's apis don't violate I I I think right.
07:25:43 I mean they're not exposing anything by one isp to other isp.
07:25:49 So some brick i'm brainstorming right now, and just because I don't fully understand what this proposal is.
07:25:59 The The biggest concern that I have with this is, if you look at the Gdpr.
07:26:08 Which is the European and data protection. If you look at the at the new, the there are 2 new proposals.
07:26:19 One is I forgot the acronyms. one, but one is specific to the market security and the user security, and so on, and so forth.
07:26:30 Right. and then you compare that to a open Ati that is going to allow you allow access to anything in everything, and I understand what the intentions are.
07:26:42 But once you provide the plumbing of the infrastructure then you're basically creating opportunities for significant amount of abuse at the infrastructure that is not exposed to your ultimate end. users.
07:27:03 So I think, as we move forward, you know this is again, i'm brainstorming as we move forward, we need to start to look at or to consider these data.
07:27:13 Protection issues or guidelines, when we consider any projects or projects that we're trying to address within.
07:27:23 Either oh, app or to larger extent within the linux Sunday.
07:27:30 We can't have a we can't have an environment where people are trying to protect the privacy of the end users, and yet would provide an infrastructure to compromise what everybody else is trying to do
07:27:50 So So I think that conversation is kind of a meta conversation that's a little bit beyond the scope of what we were thinking about here.
07:28:01 Basically basically. you know, Catherine became aware of the project, and it was, you know, talking about Apis
07:28:14 And her mind immediately shifted to Oh, is this something that could help us in in the context of external Api?
07:28:23 But we didn't have enough information on It to have a understanding of that one way or the other.
07:28:30 So this was the introduction to the project for us to see if if it even made sense in the context that we are thinking.
07:28:44 I I I think that everything that that you've brought up is a extremely valid point needless to say but I think it's a a bit of a a larger conversation than than we've got in an own app context
07:29:01 does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. The The key for own app is to protect the data that we have in Ai: Yeah, because that data is so valuable has so many.
07:29:17 So the information that's in the Ai database is so critical in the Soviet Union for somebody with bad intentions.
07:29:28 So we need to understand fully api's or the potential api's that may want access the or have access to any data elements within Api within Ai in trying to make sure don't create an environment where there is a a back
07:29:54 door to compromise someone's networks Yeah, we we we we don't want to designed in attack surface exactly exactly so check it is exactly our intent. we don't want to give any any data out which is not allowed and we
07:30:18 Don, so we are very sensitized about that. but we think these features enable really good cases, and perhaps I can give a short example.
07:30:28 We. We had a a use case together with Bmw.
07:30:32 Novio came to us, they one to remotely control a car.
07:30:37 So in the context of automatic valid parking So a driver comes to a parking garage, goes out of the car, push the button and the drawer is automatically driven in the parking garage in
07:30:51 the next slot without any human interaction that's the case and for that he needs a very reliable data connection, and also low latency.
07:31:02 So that decides not hit any other car I think It's clear, and then we we used it, and we implemented with Pmw.
07:31:13 And make the trial, and we were very successful with that.
07:31:16 But at the end we are now heading towards productization of that Api so
07:31:23 We will have a limit. independence for it. so We only Allow a bandwidth of 100 K. for for which you get the low latency, and that's exactly the the protection mechanism behind so that abuse, is not
07:31:41 possible. We don't want to have the big video streaming cases uses de priorization and making the complete cell that and affecting all other customers that they don't have a good connection. anymore.
07:31:52 So that's exactly this thing we are considering we are wanting to do.
07:31:58 But but the the the features they are there they have a value.
07:32:03 And we should give the customers the opportunity to use them because it's a real good thing, but you have all of us to be aware, and not to allow any app use and Marcus for for reference amy.
07:32:21 I see your hands up Marcus for reference a shocker heads the
07:32:27 He's the chair of the architecture subcommittee for own app amy, who's about to chime in now is the co-chair of security.
07:32:37 Oh! great!
07:32:41 So, Marcus, my question actually is about security but it's what I know.
07:32:49 Sometimes I think about other not often but my but my question is what my observation about this is that these appear to be higher level.
07:33:04 Apis than say what we would do within. around. These are to address specific use cases.
07:33:12 And and what made me think of that was your example of slicing or some other thing.
07:33:20 So it's these higher level use cases that would be used to actually trigger something to be used to trigger.
07:33:27 Oh, now to do something in terms of managing the all the underlying infrastructure, the underlying Nfs.
07:33:36 Is that an accurate car yeah so that's? So I I almost think this is related to some of the stuff that's going on with like the Ig super blueprint the enterprise use cases that that was
07:33:52 kind of what what struck me about camara. Yeah.
07:33:57 So typically, we want to be on this intent based level.
07:34:00 So this higher level that I the Apis are yeah use case driven, let's call it in that way, and not technical their business, not, I think a bone app is being very technically driven apis
07:34:17 you know, I have a policy that says, if someone asked me to do something about slicing, I have this policy that goes through and does magic in the network.
07:34:27 Yeah, because typically the lower level is already standardized for example by 3 Gp: by Ad: No, it's a math team forum.
07:34:35 And we don't want have a conflict with them so we are closely aligned with them.
07:34:39 That's a different level of of of the apis and we are white to do double work, and be also don't want to to step on on anybody's 2.
07:34:50 So for that we decided to be on the on the intent based level.
07:34:56 Okay and are. And you said that these are that they? This is under Gsm: A.
07:35:05 What is the relationship with Gsma again? I didn't So we have a pitchy open platform group and and camara
07:35:21 So there is a legal statement between both that they can share
07:35:27 The their requirements and some Api documents to camera.
07:35:34 We can use it, develop the api's to test the Api's, and then we pass back the complete Api package to the cheese, and may for publishing thank you
07:35:54 Perhaps i'm off base here, but it sounds like it may be as a model somewhat similar to O.
07:35:58 Ran s see
07:36:06 Maybe i'm i'm thinking it's we're in a C.
07:36:11 I, I still see is somewhat less intentional. to to give you some more more examples, to keep you more feeling about the Apis which we expose.
07:36:23 So that could be. Yeah, at the top, the reachability, the location of of you is so, for example, you can get the the last location of a throne when you have missed.
07:36:31 It when it has disappeared that you can find it again that's one of of the cases.
07:36:38 Then we have Apis to get a number of devices in a in a region geographic region that could be used for traffic chambings.
07:36:48 Corona crowd warnings, or even to decide if it's a good idea to start a new drone, and how much of drones are already there.
07:36:55 So then we have api's about the the network congestion.
07:37:01 So that can be the number of devices in the slice or the congestion of the network itself.
07:37:08 That's to decide about the resolution for a video transformation before you do it.
07:37:12 2 o one of pictures, so you can start in in Sd.
07:37:17 If you have congestion, and then if the network gets better, it is switches automatically to HD.
07:37:23 And then if it gets worse switch back to Sd.
07:37:26 Such things. that are features which use the data offer of a network.
07:37:34 But the more interesting are the active ones. So this the topic is college in demand to set a rotation of a certain data connection.
07:37:44 And also traffic influence. So that manages the the Exchange point where the data leaves the mobile traffic network and comes into the Internet.
07:37:55 That's also the name. Important thing so in that for all cases for yeah.
07:38:02 Mobile objects for any X. v. Our ar cases for transactions which should be safeguarded.
07:38:12 All kind of that use cases. Then we can wake up devices over the run.
07:38:19 So it's a functionality like wake up line so let's wake up and run that's for low energy energy devices.
07:38:28 For example, you can put it in a sleep and then wake it again.
07:38:32 To save energy, and also there are possibilities to to block the communication in a graphic region so that could be for crisis management.
07:38:44 For exceptional things. I think you can use such features.
07:38:47 So a lot of interesting you know innovative technologies and We are sure they they can enable a lot of use cases.
07:38:59 It can help the customers. but you are completely right.
07:39:03 We have to to use it very cautious, and avoid any app use of it.
07:39:10 Okay, see? Shankar has his hand up brandy has his hand up, and then looking at the time. we're gonna have to wrap up here pretty quick because we have other business to do so shankar yeah, i'll just make
07:39:27 a quick comment. And in the agenda there was a question, I believe, from Captain, about how does it relate to our external Api?
07:39:37 So this I see this as this is about abstraction of service.
07:39:41 Api to network api's and so for example, and it was an allusion to slicing.
07:39:48 So in on app. Of course, there is a slight network license use case, and there is also an intent based use cases.
07:39:55 And there was some connection between the 2. And so so when that comes up, the concept of an some kind of an Api with an intern based request, for example, to to to create slices or or modify slices or anything to do
07:40:14 with Some external agent making of the cost coming in to let's say, our own app network. and so I think some of the things involved here are from the way understand external.
07:40:28 Api. This is quite some involvement with the So the service orchestrator, because each of these Apis would be something that is, has been known, defined.
07:40:39 The service would have been already being created in the service catalog.
07:40:43 And so it should be aware of this. So I see a role.
07:40:47 Yeah, involving yourself, because also I was involved with the external Api part, and just wanted to make good comment.
07:40:54 Some of this relates to it so relates to intern based work in the slicing way
07:41:03 And you could make the argument that it you know the control loop is in the policy, and so on and so forth.
07:41:11 Right, we'll get involved. I mean the entire platform would be involved.
07:41:15 I I think the issue is at least sorry I I went out of turn. but the issue is, how do you control the requests coming over the Api to make sure that you're not providing a the back door in 2 compromising your
07:41:35 network. 3 that's the that's the key but that's for I'll leave that in for another discussion.
07:41:41 So I agree that is that is critical I don't see anything ready. solving.
07:41:48 Addressing this particular issue as to where it could
07:41:54 Hey, Randy? Yeah. So I I like to concur with the previous speaker.
07:42:01 Is about It's come on not being a natural Northern Api for the functionality given, provided by ownout, because of all the reasons mentioned, security and and the ability to wreak havoc on the network by irresponsible use of
07:42:16 the Api The other thing I wanted to say is that and Shanghai kind of mentioned it is the intent-based networking functionality that own up started developing releases and that seems to be much more
07:42:29 aligned tomorrow. So in the context of intense intent, based networking, perhaps the Api is defined by tomorrow can be used by own up as the northbound Api for for that type of intent based
07:42:46 networking. i'm not an expert on or anything based functionalities.
07:42:51 I don't know if you have someone else on the call who can chime in, or we can take it offline and see whether there's good fit between tomorrow and and intent based networking.
07:43:00 You know
07:43:07 So would would a session at the November Dtf.
07:43:20 Here be something that might be a value
07:43:30 Sure, I mean if those will willingness from the commercial side to come in. discuss this, i'm sure we can bring in the experts from the own upside, and, as I said, especially from the intent base
07:43:46 So from my site. There is a very open mind in that.
07:43:51 It would be great to collaborate but I also want to to deeply understand your Api's.
07:43:57 I I still haven't got it exactly what what they are exposing, and I think we should more go people in see what they are doing, and what makes sense for the specific apis.
07:44:08 But in general I really appreciate the collaboration between the 2 projects.
07:44:13 Okay. So Marcus. I think that that all be in touch with you.
07:44:25 Regarding potentially setting something up at at are an event November developer and testing forum.
07:44:31 This is going to be a face to face event it's co-located with the one summit.
07:44:36 The one summits on Tuesday, Wednesday,
07:44:42 Our event is on Thursday, Friday in the same location.
07:44:45 So. That sounds good, because we try to have also a a slot in the one summit.
07:44:54 And one of my project People nascent radar will will take part there and
07:44:59 Then you can join your people would be great. Okay, that sounds good. great.
07:45:05 Great if there's nothing else give it account of 3, 1, 2, 3
07:45:15 I wanna say, thank you so much for coming to the meeting and sharing this with us.
07:45:22 This is great awareness for us it doesn't it doesn't sound like it's a a good solution to the specific problem that that we were trying to solve But I think that there's a a higher
07:45:39 level of discussion that's needed obviously so yeah There's potential yeah, for good fit So thank you So much.
07:45:49 Thanks also for my site was great to be in your team it's the first time that it was in a in another steering committee.
07:45:56 Then in mind. So to think that's a good experience so thanks a lot for your attention.
07:46:03 If you need something, please contact me directly. via email or Call me So i'm really open. Thanks.
07:46:10 A lot have a good rest of the meeting and you're you're welcome to you're you're welcome to stay on for the rest of the meeting.
07:46:22 If if you are bored now, we're just gonna get into regular business every week.
07:46:29 Yeah, Okay, Marcus, what's the easiest way to contact you, because i'm actually, i'm interested in this.
07:46:37 And from another perspective. So it's easy I can put a my email in in the chat so I try to manage that with zoom
07:46:51 So hopefully you can see it. So thanks a lot and have a good rest of the meeting.
07:46:57 Okay, great. Thank you, thank you, sir. thank you okay let's shift gears.
07:47:07 Then to David and M. 2 for cone. Alright, thanks, Kenny.
07:47:14 Kenny, Do we have quorum for milestone decision?
07:47:19 Yes, we do. Okay. Good. Alright, So I sent out the weekly status report yesterday.
07:47:28 Hopefully. you all had chance to see it. if not, I did include a link to it.
07:47:34 Here in the agenda So looking specifically at milestone, 2 just to refresh everyone. We reviewed the status of milestone to a week ago, and determined that we weren't quite ready yet
07:47:53 so we pushed it out a week to today so let's take a look first at the the milestone status.
07:48:05 So i'm i'm pleased to say that the m 2 tasks have all been completed.
07:48:16 So, thanks to all of you who dug in
07:48:21 We Still, when we looked at this a week ago, I think we still had.
07:48:26 I don't know 2 dozen tasks or so left out, and so they're all close now.
07:48:33 Of course, the requirement owner tasks are also closed.
07:48:36 Also I want to point out that you'll recall that the Tsc.
07:48:40 Approved m One conditionally conditioned on completing the right remaining open tasks by am 2, and so you can see that those those tasks have been completed as well.
07:48:57 So. so we're looking very good in terms of our
07:49:05 Release management tasks for the milestone. I did want to take a quick look at the impact view per component.
07:49:21 See, I've got here somewhere here we go just to point out a couple of interesting things.
07:49:28 You'll notice that for requirement 12 o 7 d map enhancements.
07:49:35 We have 3 of the participating projects are have indicated that they won't be able to support the requirement.
07:49:45 I I sent mail to Fiatra asking him.
07:49:50 You know what the impact is on 12 o 7 whether he'll have to reduce scope or withdraw some waiting for feedback from Fiatra.
07:50:01 I think he might be on holiday right now. I also had an exchange with
07:50:11 The modeling team, and also requirement 18, 7, and because I was just concerned that they they say they have a dependency here on modeling.
07:50:29 But the feedback that I got was that I guess the the the dependency isn't so much on the modeling project per se.
07:50:39 But the the subcommittee and I think one of the participants in modeling is on the call.
07:50:51 You are. Yeah, sorry yon Hong. Are you available?
07:50:53 Can you comment on this
07:51:00 Yeah, Okay, you hear me, I can. Yeah, I have contact with Kirk one.
07:51:10 And he said, This requirement is only depends on the modeling Committee and is not related with the Sdkantlog project. so Hv.
07:51:23 Or not. hmm influence how un influence ui project.
07:51:31 All right. Can I clear this cell then, because it doesn't really seem like It's a dependency.
07:51:39 Yeah, I I I think, yeah, it's i'm billing, and some makes take a about the modeling and the modeling actually can log.
07:51:51 Some people think modeling is a equals to modeling a committee, not modeling as the catalog project.
07:52:01 So maybe we should to Maybe it's more clear about modeling April.
07:52:12 Yeah, this is specifically looks at modeling as a as a component
07:52:18 So I I think I my inclination is to clear this because it doesn't seem like it's really a dependency, unless unless you disagree, hey?
07:52:31 So the we, I think the un home put the the Se.
07:52:35 Cather of in the modeling project. But that particular Sdk catalog used by many component, especially on it as the alignment component.
07:52:47 All the component we are using. It depends on the mother.
07:52:48 I know that they don't maintain that's fine any the tested is not they don't have vulnerability.
07:52:56 So the project should, you know, deployed as if because hold on a s alignment component, use that component for the catalog for alright.
07:53:14 So just leave it as is Yes. if you remove it, then hold on the Ocl.
07:53:17 On enablement, I should walk. Okay, alright, okay. So
07:53:25 And then going down to the looking at the global requirements, just be aware that it looks like we are unlikely to make any progress on.
07:53:39 Gui testing or also code code, separation.
07:53:47 These are requirement, 399 and 3, 9, 6 global requirements.
07:53:55 I'll also Yeah, looks like a standardized logging requirement.
07:54:03 1 0 7, 2, doesn't have any support. either so I just wanted to just for your information for the Tsc.
07:54:12 Just to be aware of those short falls and support for for some of our requirements.
07:54:22 All right. one question. Sorry. Can you go back to previous and look at the login this one?
07:54:31 Yeah, no one's supporting I thought the cps team already using the the format support the proposed by a second Emmy.
07:54:39 I think that's my understanding that was my understanding as well thanks for asking that question.
07:54:46 Are you referring to? 12 o 7, or a different one?
07:54:50 Rogging stand up moment. Yeah. 1 0 7 2. Yes, that's the Cps.
07:55:00 They already apply this one, so I think that they they use it.
07:55:04 But we expect other compon component follow it. but is that do. we need to follow up with well, actually, isn't is Dan on the call.
07:55:18 I thought I saw him on the earlier, but my end of dropped off.
07:55:24 Yeah, So i'm not following what what exactly is the concern one other component cps for is going, and they already apply the standardized volume field in their logging.
07:55:40 And the that second recommended so that's Why, i'm just you know, to keep some details so one of them they already started.
07:55:50 So. so you're thinking that their their box associated with 1072 should actually be green for C. that's what it sounds like.
07:56:04 Well, so let's remember right? so remember what this means it means, are you working on it for this release?
07:56:13 Not whether you've completed. it or not but are you will you be supporting this work for this release. So if they've already completed the work, then they're not going to be working on it for this release right unless there's
07:56:27 bugs and fixes so if they've already implemented it.
07:56:32 Then that would explain why there's no okay we can that will check with the twin. And then I think the last time they group in presented to a second, and there will come on it from that should they complete it or not I
07:56:47 can. looks like they complete it. and also I thought the second try to make this.
07:56:54 You know, for applied to other component But if you Pt. here doesn't want to do it.
07:56:59 The cone desk to different, but at at least the cps I don't know.
07:57:03 We have to check the status. What cpus going on with this requirement?
07:57:11 Yeah, if there, if there are other impacted projects. they should have an x in this column.
07:57:21 Unless they've already completed the work or an x in this row, I should say
07:57:32 Right? because this is glo. This is a global requirement for global requirement.
07:57:38 It's not a best practice. So beyond do we need to follow up with these, and and maybe with Bob, I think the probably has the best.
07:57:46 Yeah, we need to follow up this, because this is the global requirement.
07:57:50 That means we expect the All. the component follow this, but the Cf.
07:57:54 Is the first one, but we expect the other component to follow this right? presented to several times to Ptole. and then, you know.
07:58:04 So we have to follow up. Yeah, because they should if they've already done it.
07:58:08 It's fine for it to be white but I don't know what the status of how many have actually done this, and just to to remember.
07:58:17 So what we expect is that the whoever is responsible for the requirement puts the x's in the cell, and then the projects come in behind and color code the cells where there are x's so we don't expect
07:58:33 the projects to actually put the access in the box
07:58:51 Right? Yeah, global requirements should always be access. Essentially they they always apply well.
07:58:58 And unless the work has been completed right, but it still applies.
07:59:01 I mean, think about think about upgrade packages that happens every single release
07:59:11 So it always applies. And we did, you know, for many of these we go through and create separate tickets, separate tickets for the for for each project, so that they have specific tickets.
07:59:27 So I always forget to fill out the excess I'm sorry alright, at the Ui team, and they put X may not have resource them to kind of a provide exception.
07:59:39 You know the fighting, but there's I think they have to look at the each.
07:59:43 Each project Pts should look at indicate something because it will work on
07:59:52 Okay, Well, what I can do. then. is I can take an action to update this. this page put x's in all the boxes and reach out to the the Ptls and ask them to go back and color code the the global
08:00:11 requirements, and maybe we need to have something that just make it explicit that it?
08:00:17 I guess if it's white we know it means it's complete. And they've done their check, and they know it doesn't apply to them.
08:00:23 Yeah, Yeah, it seems like we need to expand our color coding.
08:00:29 That makes a headers my recommendation would be to make the header rose gray and make the completed rows blue.
08:00:42 That's kind of a standard connection invention blue for complete. So color code, the cell blue, if it's complete complete and no action required.
08:01:01 Okay, Alright, Yeah, I guess we could expand. We can expand the color coding to say that.
08:01:06 Okay, all right. I will take, an I take the action on that.
08:01:11 Then
08:01:24 And i'll see if I capture that as a lesson learned for
08:01:28 Yeah, I mean ultimately, how you wanna color coded is the release manager, You know you pick the color code, but
08:01:48 So we'll Dave is typing that in it sounds like we've got exceptions that need to be granted.
08:01:59 Then, or I don't think so
08:02:09 Okay, Are we ready to put it to a vote? then? not quite.
08:02:16 I have a question so modeling. Multi Cloud and Vfc.
08:02:21 Are not participating
08:02:27 I think that's true. Yeah, alright let me go check something because
08:02:33 Modeling. I already checked and modeling doesn't modeling doesn't have any upgrades to do?
08:02:44 Yeah. I know definitely modeling and multi cloud.
08:02:50 And then, actually, I think Well, in fact, young Hong is on the call as far as I know.
08:02:59 Vfc. is participating in the release yon hong. Can you confirm that Vfc.
08:03:06 Is participating in cone
08:03:13 We have to see. we will not participate. Yankee release 2, because there is no any meet in this release.
08:03:25 There is no new feature, and also how there
08:03:32 How new resources Z in this release. So they want to practice paging Kate alright.
08:03:43 So for Vfc there is one component the Vfc.
08:03:47 And a vo driver, Sv. and Fm. Huawei, that has open vulnerabilities.
08:03:59 It has third party vulnerabilities, so we just have to know to, you know, if they're not going to participate, they're not participating.
08:04:05 But we have to know to document that in the release notes
08:04:17 And this and The and multi cloud also has one component that has third party packages to upgrade
08:04:35 Or multi cloud. I had for my still update or Sto support some smaller patch which is already existing, but it's not it released in multi cloud.
08:04:49 I I I just wrote something to yeah, whether we can.
08:04:54 Then he can create patchful downward on a new docker.
08:05:00 Release for that for cold. Okay with it, with the continue that. Yeah, with everything.
08:05:05 Update the artifact broker with the packages upgrade updated exactly perfect
08:05:15 So it's already implemented so it's not a should not be a big issue, but he just needs to create a new version.
08:05:23 So it's more or less a kind of buck no Okay, Okay, he's doing about it. It is a for all practical purposes.
08:05:29 It's a bug fix yeah exactly it's not a new feature.
08:05:33 That's right. okay. So the bug fix is going to be committed.
08:05:37 Then
08:05:41 Right. Yeah, I I hope so. So I I I asked him so that he can get it.
08:05:46 Gives a new one. I haven't been in the discussion about participation, and I don't know what participation in that way means.
08:05:55 But I guess that Buck fixes are always possible let's say in a release without, let's say stating i'm part of the release.
08:06:02 I hoped at least
08:06:09 But I just sent him to do your mail
08:06:15 Alright. So the last thing that I wanted to show is that
08:06:25 So the the the work that the unmaintained project working group has been doing is starting to bear some fruit.
08:06:35 So Amy gave a nice presentation to the Tsc.
08:06:38 A couple of months ago about the process and now we've identified some repositories as candidates for that process, and Amy helpfully put together some jira tickets for each of those
08:06:58 projects to to initiate that that project, that process, And considering those repositories as as being marked as unmaintained and and archived, and and the other process steps that that Amy documented and
08:07:16 So I added this table to the the Cone release section, just so that we can track this as a release management metric going forward.
08:07:33 So for ptls are on the call make sure that you're aware of this issue that's been assigned to your project for the cone release alright that's not a m 2
08:07:51 milestone item, or is that is not i'm just making just making it a aware the Tsc.
08:08:03 Aware of that for the the release in general. alright.
08:08:09 Now going back to your question earlier. kenny about whether there's an exception, I guess.
08:08:14 Thinking about it. I get, I guess. In fact, there is an exception, and that is related to the the discussion that we had about the global requirements.
08:08:22 So my recommendation to the Tsc. is that we approve M. 2 conditioned on the completion of the color coding of the global requirements.
08:08:40 By m 3
08:08:47 Good, David. this Vj: Can you go back on the the impact view per component?
08:08:52 I just You had a separate table create for best practice and global requirement where there's nothing on the best practice.
08:08:59 But I do see at least some of these global requirements should be under best practices.
08:09:05 Just Is it a issue here? or no I don't think so?
08:09:12 Unless I I I might have made an error.
08:09:16 Yeah, I mean looking at the list on the Gs.
08:09:19 At least the log standard login was the best practice in the previous release, but i'm not sure if that was approved as a gr, I mean Dr.
08:09:28 Means pretty much all components containers are compliant they'll be like otherwise.
08:09:33 We need to great exception for that at least, my mind that was still the best practice.
08:09:37 I don't know if that was approved by tc subsequently.
08:09:41 But yeah, actually, that's that's a good point because the requirement owners typically add these to the the tables.
08:09:54 And so it's possible that there was an error made in in adding the the table or adding the requirement to the table, and appropriately. So let's see, what did we decide on 1 0 7 2 yeah, So I see
08:10:14 that it was approved. as a best practice and I don't see anything in here that it was approved as a global requirement.
08:10:22 So that's that's a fair point so I will I will go back through all of the global requirements, and make sure that that they are appropriate and in the appropriate table, and and move, any that should be
08:10:39 best practices in the best practice table. So thanks for pointing that out
08:10:52 Okay, So what I'm going to put forward into chat does the Tsc.
08:10:58 Approve the column. 2 milestone is being completed with the condition that the color coding for global, the for the global requirement table is updated by M.
08:11:09 3,
08:11:18 Okay, hearing no one correcting me, I am plunking that down into the chat window.
08:11:25 Now vote is in progress.
08:11:52 Thank you. 10 more seconds
08:12:04 Okay, we are. We have passed m 2. Yay, alright.
08:12:16 Thanks, Kenny and that's it for me unless there are any questions
08:12:31 Okay.
08:12:36 Yeah. one comment for date and others
08:12:43 Yeah. so on, Maintain the Po I mentioned before to second but on maintenance project.
08:12:52 It's different from unused project. So for aaf we tried to the replace with the equivalent function.
08:13:00 And then we are developing the Andrea into Andrews for developing service mesh English and all the other certificate capability.
08:13:07 So we say, free removing aaf and we provide the same you know similar function different way.
08:13:15 So that's the 1 one case for some unused project like for example, Bfc.
08:13:21 And the openly alignment sd alignment day don't maintain.
08:13:24 For now, because no feature but they are used but if they remove it.
08:13:32 They are private carav is fine we don't need that's fine. but if you're not part of the delivery, then we are losing the only capability so it's different from a f case because we are the moving af
08:13:43 but we're adding the new the same capability the different way, and that's the I tried to when go through process for a maintain process.
08:13:52 We have to. Not that that's my input So beyond do you need me to update something.
08:14:01 Oh, no, let's talk about it on Monday Yes, we discussed the Monday What you say we can discuss, because some cases we providing same capability.
08:14:10 But some some cases we booting capability without, you know.
08:14:13 So anyway, we can well, and you can lose capability.
08:14:17 If nobody was actually using it. but we're not sure right Well, but the outside, we will never know what the outside world does that's the whole thing. We can't we if no one's willing to maintain something
08:14:30 it's I I don't see how we can just we can just let people know.
08:14:34 Hey? this is this: capability is going away because nothing in own app depends on it.
08:14:38 Feel free to use unmaintained feel free to use code that it has become mystery.
08:14:46 But some yeah, we can't discuss, but sometimes maintain one is temporary and maintain, because for sdk, since we want to wait for another specification version and then hold down but they don't we gonna go back
08:15:00 so that case we cannot, you know. So anyway, okay,
08:15:18 Got 15 min left here, so trying to crank through some stuff.
08:15:26 Any update I don't see anyone from reeling on the call, so i'll probably don't have an update there on anything.
08:15:45 This is the final call for looking for an integration.
08:15:53 Ptl put the request out one more time, and then the Tsc.
08:15:59 Will need to figure out what we are going to do in that regard.
08:16:02 If we have no ptl for integration. which is a pretty slizable concern
08:16:15 Moving down Catherine had put a note in here about layers on statement.
08:16:23 And I guess this was discussed at Oanis, c.
08:16:27 And she felt that Shankar, you may have a be able to provide an update on that
08:16:41 Sorry I was on mute you're talking about the copyright issue. the Yeah.
08:16:51 I'm in the there's the the Yes, yes, yes, it is a Magnus.
08:17:00 We had a call yesterday. oh, he did say he was Okay, let me report on that.
08:17:08 Yeah, it is out. And And he did say, Pm: would be that.
08:17:13 Okay, So there is some progress. we many people are on vacation.
08:17:18 So John Kenny and Timo was not there. but madness, myself and Martin Scotland.
08:17:24 We had discussion about this yesterday, and at least there is.
08:17:29 There is a sense of at least assessing what they show us.
08:17:33 And converging on the fact that the problem needs to be explained better.
08:17:40 At the at the level of what impact it has in in software projects.
08:17:45 So so we are what we decided to so essentially put all that together, and then and then the text is ready, Wagner said He would.
08:17:58 He would send a lease on letter, or he will draft the lease on letter, get it up to the Tse.
08:18:03 And and at the same time follow it. up. with some kind of a call, because that the topic is such that just the documents going back and forth don't fully convey
08:18:13 But it'll also some other key people are away on vacation. So all this so it'll we'll gather the material and then make sure that we have the right people when we arrange the call.
08:18:30 Okay, thank you for that. You're welcome any questions from anyone
08:18:41 Okay, there's a request from anecdot assured for release requirements.
08:18:51 Randy, I see your name associated with that yeah Catherine kind of put me on the spot here.
08:18:59 I'll my my best to relate the message so the request came from the team working on.
08:19:06 I don't get assured, and you can see the text of the question.
08:19:11 The only thing that they were asking which version to use. And Katherine, suggested here what is marked with the question, Mark, did you, Carter?
08:19:20 Which is the latest and greatest so I'm kind of opening up this question to the Tsc.
08:19:25 Does anybody know of a reason why the latest version of ownup shouldn't be used for vnf badging
08:19:45 So i'm hearing no objection, I will take it back to kind of garage and I I I must be.
08:19:50 I must admit that I don't understand the implications if we say a certain version should be used, what are we committed to or
08:20:00 Is there any action that needs to be taken from the own upside?
08:20:02 So follow up on that with the I look at the short thing I'm. Not sure what what action might need to be taken.
08:20:11 But the last the last certification was done on using Dublin.
08:20:15 So we are well down the road from that. Yeah, it sounds like, Jakarta is better than doubling.
08:20:27 But before we kind of provide the final answer, and want to make sure we're not taking some commitment that we cannot fulfill here
08:20:40 So I will take that answer back to the ancestral team and see if there are any.
08:20:46 Follow up things we need to do. Sandra, do you have any thing to add in that regard?
08:20:52 I see your on the call
08:20:59 Maybe she stepped away. Okay, Button, Sorry no I don't have anything that Thank you.
08:21:10 Okay, no enterprise call Elections will start in September.
08:21:17 Life cycle is still something that is not seeing much in in in the way of life cycle being applied to it.
08:21:29 Chicago awards nominations are open they're open through August fourth keeping that open for a good long time, due to the holidays.
08:21:40 And coming up we've got the one summit registration is open for that more importantly at the moment.
08:21:52 Is that cfps are open and those end on July 29.
08:22:01 Now the Cfps are for the one summit the developer and testing forum. that will follow the 2 days after that.
08:22:10 It's going to be the standard model that we use you go to the to the Wiki.
08:22:19 You add your topics and and things like that the deadline for that's further down the road closer to the event.
08:22:26 But the Cfps are coming up here very, very quickly, so I will drop the link for the Cfps there, and the link for the registration
08:22:50 There. there is a discount code for members for registration for the summit.
08:23:06 This is for for folks that are part part of member companies.
08:23:14 You can put that in, and it will discount your registration.
08:23:21 There is a cost associated with attending the once of it.
08:23:30 There is no cost associated with attending the developer and testing forum.
08:23:36 And you can register for both if you're going to one.
08:23:40 It's a simple checkbox on the on the registration for the one summit to attend the developer and testing form.